Join Charlie, a non-binary sci-fi and fantasy writer, and their husband, Brian, as they explore the theological and symbolic meanings behind the Assumption of Mary. This discussion delves into the historical evidence for religious figures, the nature of faith, and the importance of religious stories beyond their factual accuracy. Through a lighthearted and pragmatic lens, the episode navigates complex religious topics, emphasizing the spiritual significance of Mary’s story and its relevance to modern lives. This thoughtful analysis aims to foster a deeper understanding of faith, divine union, and the enduring power of religious narratives.
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Transcript:
Charlie- New: [00:00:00] Today as the church celebrates and remembers. The assumption of Mary into heaven. We're going to ask the important question. . And this matters to me because.
Today I'm creations paths.
Intro Hello everybody. My name is Charlie. I'm a non binary scifi, fancy writer. And I am joined today by my husband, Brian.
Brian - New: Hulu.
Charlie- New: And yeah, that was kind of a flippant way to start, but, I think people. Often take religion and spirituality. Way too seriously. And it's important for us to. Allow for a little lightheartedness. And how do we approach these topics?
Brian - New: Also. It's important. For the pragmatic individuals From their perspective, they're going to wonder, like what. Does it even matter? [00:01:00] and . Maybe not even look into what it is to even find out if it matters or not. To them, they don't think it matters enough. So it's not a slave. It's not a bad question. As you know, We all have busy lives and. Many, many things that we can be spending our time on and. That's a good question.
Charlie- New: Well, that's Meister Eckhart said. What good is it to me today? If Jesus was born. 2000 years ago. If he is not born right here and right now in my heart,
I think that that's a really. Good invalid way to see all of this because. I think it's a mistake to try to historicize faith.
By that, I don't mean. That I don't believe in historical Jesus or anything like that. I think. You have to be rather foolish to not believe in a historical Jesus. There's enough evidence. That this person existed. We can argue over what his life meant. We can argue over what words he actually said, but the idea that there that's where he [00:02:00] is beyond debate. And also beyond my interest.
I mean to be quite Frank and I talk about this a lot. The power. That any of these stories have? Isn't the story? It's wonderful that there was a historical Jesus and there was probably a historical Mary. And whether or not. We think we know for sure that his mother was named Mary a. Something like 60% of the women in the, in Judea were named some version of Mary. Like it's an insanely high number. I think that might be too high. I don't know. It might be too low. We have a lot of graves and other legal documents from the time. There were a lot of Mary's Maria's Mariam nays. Merriam's. there were a lot of marries in the first century. So just out of. The odds of it. Probably. Just like, there was definitely a Jesus. Cause again, Fairly common name. Back then.
So the story of the assumption of [00:03:00] Mary, which. I think confuses some people because we talk about the Ascension of Christ and the assumption of Mary and we use the word assumption differently now is like, You're assuming something. But it literally means to take up.
So when you assume something, you take it up is. If it were true, whether it is or not. the reason. We talked about the assumption rather than the Ascension is a basic old theological argument of Jesus ascended into heaven, basically on his own power. And God sent the angels to take. Mary up to assume Mary into heaven. In much the same way that the chariot came down for a light.
There's actually I think a good argument over whether or not. Mary. Died in the story. Before this. Because the oldest version of this that we have is actually a third century story. Called the Dormition of Mary. It's a fancy way of saying when Mary fell asleep.
In this story. Something happened to me. The text [00:04:00] says she fell asleep, which was a euphemism for the dying. . They put her in the tomb. The angels go out throughout the world and bring all of the apostles back. To Jerusalem and they're all over the world. But they bring them all back. I get to fly angel airlines. So that they can be there. And. Lo and behold, what happens? Mary walks out of the tube. Says a brief sermon about. How good it is to be alive and that you should. I'll do a as her son commanded. And then the angels come and they carry her up into heaven. And then the angels returning carry all the apostles back to wherever they were before this happened.
Perfectly adorable. Third century century story.
Brian - New: Sorry. I keep laughing every time you see angel airlines, because it reminds me of a thing I once heard. Regarding angel airlines would be whisked away and. The, reply. was.
God gave you a gift of two working legs and feet. I'm not here to defame God's gift. Get to walk in.
Angel airlines. I'm like, yeah. They [00:05:00] told him to get to walking back. Got a feeling this took months. not like the Enterprise beaming you up and beaming you back down probably.
Charlie- New: So the thing about this is. We have a fixation. In our modern world. Over whether something historically happened. And I get that to a certain degree. It's nice to know. It's facts about certain things. And this one. Even if we could come up with something. That would be considered a fact.
It wouldn't matter. this is one of those things you have to take on faith, right? We can talk all day long about how I do believe that there is so much evidence for historical Jesus. And that there was not only a historical Jesus, but he was crucified.
That is beyond. Recognize . This happened. The Talmud says that the apostles stole his bot. The gospels say that he, Rick rose from the dead. Many of the earliest Roman writers. Say that he was believed to have [00:06:00] risen from the dead. But do not account for his bot. Which leads me to believe. There was not a tune in the first several centuries that people could point to and say, that's where he was.
I do find it odd that none of the Roman writers. Who were very vicious against Christianity. Point to things like, and that's the pile that his body was thrown onto. The dogs could eat it.
Brian - New: Yeah.
Because they did that. And other writings of other individuals.
Charlie- New: It's weird, but again, What historical proof could I give you? There is no such thing as historical evidence for a miracle. I can show you somebody who had. Just to go to Lourdes. For example, there are medical records of people that had. Physical disfigurements that based in the water. And those physical disfigurements healed.
We have before and after photos, we have letters from their doctors. You have to take it on faith. If you don't have faith already, You're going to [00:07:00] assume while the records are somehow. Biased there. Fabricated, you know what I'm saying? There is no such thing as evidence for a miracle. And I don't care. That to me, isn't the most important part of the story. Whether or not a literal woman named Mary. Literally. Was raised into heaven. To me is the weirdest thing to argue about. Especially close to 2000 years. After the events. . When I say the dormission of Mary is a cute little story. Mary moved to emphasis with John. This is something that's very well attested to. In the early Christian writers that John basically when Jesus died, took over as caretaker for her. As a widow. And that she probably lived out the rest of her days in Ephesus.
So the idea that they would have traveled all the way from emphasis back to Jerusalem. Again, not the point. The point is, does this story [00:08:00] mean something?
And I really feel like we need to get there. With any of these stores, right? When we read Cyril of Jerusalem telling us that the Phoenix is all burst into flames. When Christ was born.
Hey, Brent themselves to Ash. And then. Erupted again, back to life.
Do I believe that somewhere in the Arabian peninsula was a whole bunch of birds that suddenly caught fire. Did Cyril bully. That somewhere in. The Arabian peninsula, whole bunch of birds. Fire. I don't, I don't think so. I do think that there's something very important in the cemetery. And then these words. What does it mean that Mary. Was carried up into heaven. What does that mean for us?
Well, as we've talked about several episodes now, Mary is the tree of life. Mary is. The. Matrix of God, the mother of God. So of course the idea that she would be left here.
Well, that's weird. [00:09:00] Why would you leave her here? Especially with the gospels telling us that, in my father's house, there are many mansions. Oh, wait. There's that chariot literature again, that palace literature and mysticism again. That's interesting.
Of course the twist on it. And the Christian story is, and my father's palace. There are many mansions and I go to prepare a place for you.
Okay. This is often seen as a story about heaven. I think you can interpret it that way. If you want to. I tend to think that this is again, referring to the mystical practices of that day in time.
. That's something again, we'll have to talk about in further detail. Somewhere else. What does it mean that Mary. I was taking them to hug. Well, first of all, Mary is. The audience surrogate. For us. She's the first person to believe.
Charlie- New: Angel shows up, says you're going to give birth. To the sun. Of the most high. And we have Mary's Fiat.
Let it be done unto me, according to your world.
[00:10:00] Mary is the first one to hear. That her son is going to suffer. And she ponders all things in our heart. Right. Mary proclaims the gospel first. All right. And the significant.
God has been to raise up the lowly and throw the proud down.
Mary is there. The crucifixion she's there at the. Resurrection she's there at the Ascension she's there at Pentecost.
The story would be oddly incomplete. If she didn't also assend.
Especially as the story had developed up until this point, we already have. The earliest versions of the, what would later be the immaculate conception.
Which are different because there was no concept of original sin in the original story. Mary was just very special. In fact, in this version of the story, she's a tempo Virgin. She dedicated herself to God and just kind of prodo nun. Sort of way. And went and lived in the temple. Until it was decided, you know, you should probably get married. And [00:11:00] then they arranged her marriage to Joseph and everything.
But it is the natural ending. To her story. And to ours.
Mary. Falls asleep.
And it's called up. Into the heavens. She's assumed up into them and she's carried into the clouds. And this is such a powerful image because it is the first time. We have this image. Where the person. Probably died first.
Elijah and Elijah. Or just walking down the road. And swing low sweet chariot. And there goes Alijah. Elijah's. Flying away on the charity. Right? We don't even know what happened with Dina. And I've walked with God and God took him.
We're still debating to this day. Over, what does it mean that God took him?
That can mean a lot of different things. What does that mean?
Well, the Nokian literature for several centuries. God assumed him adaptiveness. He ascended into heaven. When, in fact in most of this literature [00:12:00] becomes the greatest of all archangels. He takes the place that was. Abdicated when Lucifer fell.
But neither of them died. You know, who died. And the angels took him. Moses.
Where's Moses buried. Well, according to Jude. When Moses died. Michael had the devil argued over his body. Michael one. And then carried his body away to Barre.
Well, where did he carry it away to? We're not pointed at a place. A marker on the map. Right.
It's carried away. Took him away. The only other person I can think of who has a story like this is Moses. The law giver. Wait a minute. The law giver.
Now, this may be a stretch for some of you.
follow me here.
If the only analogy we have for this kind of a story. Is Moses the law-giver who went up Mount Sinai. Brought the law back down.
The only person in scripture who's recorded as having seen God. Face-to-face.
And died for it.
Brian - New: Yeah. i was going to say. And did [00:13:00] not survive. The encounter did not survive. He continued on, but does not survive. It's true when you read those passages. Yeah.
Charlie- New: Globe like the front and they asked her to cover his feelings. Please cover up.
Brian - New: You're freaking us out, dude. And the end, the governance of up, cause he was panicking people to be in his presence. Yeah, that's not a person who's still alive. not in the traditional sense.
Charlie- New: But, like I said, the only other person I can think of who has this kind of a story in the tradition is Moses. David doesn't have the story. Solomon doesn't have the story. It's just Moses. Mary. Gave birth to the way the truth and the life. Moses. You give the law.
This is the parallel to me. That the first century church has seen here. And that is. Putting forward here.
When we're seeing this kind of capstone.
And especially. She gives a farewell address in the story in the door mission of Mary. That to me reminds me of Moses his farewell [00:14:00] address. Because remember he was forbidden to enter the promised land.
So yes, to say goodbye to everybody, and then everybody. Probably crosses the river.
And leaves him.
She gets a very similar message where it's like, remember everything that happened. Remember the commandments.
In this story and the door mission of Mary Mary does the same thing. All the apostles are brought back together.
And she gives this one last speech. If you will.
And it's not look at me. I'm so great.
It's Mary been married. It's the same thing we see in the marriage. Feast of Canaan. Whatever my son tells you do it. Remember all the things that my sunsets. It's that reminder. Okay. It's a similar story.
The power of this message. Is Mary as the law-giver. Because Mary gave us no commandments. Mary gave us a way of living.
Uh, way of living. That is filled. With both the power of the holy spirit.
That is in accord with [00:15:00] the one life.
That is in accord with. That humility. Of taking up. The space that you are there to occupy. Oh, Being meek.
And being strong. She wanted to protect Jesus. She knew that what was going to happen to him.
But she'd let him go out. And preach and teach. In fact, we know that she lost at least three of her kids. To this mission. Because we know of course Jesus gets crucified. We know that. James and Jude are also killed. Brothers of Jesus and presumably her children. I know the Catholics in the audience are going to say. But they're her adopted children from previous. Marriage of Joseph's and again, sigh, I don't care.
Uh, mother as a mother. I don't want to argue over semantics.
But here we are again. In this. Wonderful moment where we're told and reminded. Whatever my son told you. Do it. Remember his commandments to you? Well, what were his commandments [00:16:00] to us? To love one another. As. We love ourselves to love God with all our heart, mind, and spirit.
It's still live in this love in this compassion.
In fact, before we started calling it the Eucharist or communion. It was the agape feast. It was the love feast. That's what church service was called. It was the feast of love.
We see that all throughout Paul's writings, we see that all throughout the first and second century writings that we have. So that's a later. That it changes and it becomes the Eucharist, the Thanksgiving or the communion.
It was the love feast because this is the great law. That comes into the world through Mary, which is Jesus. So just the law of love, the law of freedom.
This is why. The assumption of Mary. Has power.
It's not because of some promise of. Eternal life for. Any of those things, which if those have meaning and resonance for you, By all means, let them have meaning [00:17:00] and resonance for you. But this is Mary going to her proper place. In full humility. As we talked about before with the sons of zebedee, whoever will be first will be last. Jesus said. Well, Mary obviously is both the first and the last she appears here, there and yonder throughout the scriptures. But beyond that, we know very little about her.
And yet. Here she is. Going. To her home. To be queen of heaven queen of the angels queen of all hearts. In charge of the divine treasury of divine grace. Her natural place.
And this is the reminder for us of where we are going, where we are living.
As we said in the previous episode, Mary is the tree of life. The seed that is planted within us. The tree of life growing within us that bears the fruit. That is Jesus Christ.
This is the goal. This is the end state. We're all reaching for that theosis, that union with God.
How else [00:18:00] can her story end? But with perfect union. With God.
Because isn't that where we want our story to end. And I'm not talking just about death. I'm talking about. At any time. I want to be United with God now.
I went to cleave onto God now. I want to join. Forces with the one life. Now.
And what a beautiful day. To be thinking about this and aspiring for it. Then when we're remembering. The assumption of marry. We're here. Here it is.
Her perfect and complete union with God. She already had the grace. To give birth to God in this world. To give birth to divine wisdom. In this world.
And now. Perfect union with the divine. The mother of God returning. To heaven. Carried up. And the arms of the angels. How else could this story? How else do we want our story then? Because this isn't that the [00:19:00] goal.
As they very openly said in the early centuries of Christianity. God became man, that man might become God.
This was seen as the purpose of Christianity, this union, right? Jesus said it. The night before the crucifixion and the gospel of John, let them be one.
One in me as I am with you, that they may be one in us.
And he repeats this over and over and over again.
This unity with the divine, this. Acting in accord with the. One. Life. Is the purpose and function of why we're here. We're learning to live in accord with nature in accord. With that light.
And here in this one, beautiful image of Mary. We get to see that.
And that's powerful.
Brian - New: It's very powerful.
Charlie- New: So this is an image. That again, you can meditate on. I really do agree with St. Ignatius Loyola. This idea that we should put ourselves in this place.
[00:20:00] We actually look at Ignation meditation and prayer. It really is this kind of build the scene in your mind and imagine that you're there for all these important moments. And this is a powerful one to do that with. And I think visualization. It's such a powerful and wonderful. Tool that we have. And yes, it's fine to have reverence. And to celebrate these moments.
But I think it's equally important for us. To relate to them.
Imagine yourself being assumed to have. What would that be? Like, what would you see? What would you feel? What would the touch of the angels fans feel like. As they've lifted you. What would it be like to be in the presence of pure love? What does that lie?
Let's sit and meditate on that. And to really bring it deep into your heart.
Those are the questions we're asking today. What would it mean to live that? Perfect love. And union. With the one. [00:21:00] Life. God is our alive. Goodness. After all.
What would it be like if you. Shows. And actively lived. In that fullness.
I hope this has been helpful for you. I hope this is something that has resonated with you.
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Hey, the blessings of the light. Fill you with joy.
Amen. Amen.
The Meaning Behind the Assumption of Mary