Join Charlie, a non-binary scifi fantasy writer, and their husband Brian as they delve into the mystical and historical significance of the Holy Grail, its connection to St. Lawrence, and its deeper symbolic meanings. Learn about the origins of the Grail legend, its historical claims, and spiritual practices surrounding it. The episode also introduces a powerful meditation on the Grail, bridging earthly and cosmic energies to achieve balance and enlightenment. Gain insights into the spiritual path, the symbolism of the Grail in different traditions, and upcoming meditation practices.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to the Holy Grail
00:58 The Martyrdom of St. Lawrence
01:33 The Holy Grail in Spain
02:57 Historical and Ritualistic Significance of the Grail
05:05 The Grail in Druidry
08:09 Meditation on the Grail
13:01 The Grail as a Symbol of Balance and Motion
14:19 The Grail Story: A Controversial Retelling
15:34 The Grail as a Symbol of Balance and Power
17:00 Balancing Earthly and Spiritual Concerns
18:05 The Fourth Path: Justice and Celebration
19:10 Finding Balance in Daily Life
21:27 The Grail and Spiritual Practices
25:25 Conclusion and Call to Action
Transcript
Charlie- New: [00:00:00] Today on the feast of St. Lawrence, we're going to talk about a very important topic. One that I think a lot of people, either relegate to myth and legend. Or one that just doesn't come into mind all that much. When we're talking about spiritual, mystical and magical things today, we're talking about the holy grail and the quest to find it.
Insert intro here. .
Blessings in the light to you. My name is. Charlie. I am a non-binary scifi fantasy writer, and I am joined today by my wonderful husband, Brian.
Hello
today. We're going to be talking about the quest for the holy grail. And one of the.
Most entertaining and sad saints. , St. Lawrence. St Lawrence, if you don't know, [00:01:00] was martyred on this day. Many many centuries ago in the third century. When he was martyred, he was, , burned to death. He was put on a gridiron which is basically a cage that they lock you in and put you over a fire and cook you to death. And reportedly as he was being burned alive, he said to the Romans that were killing him. I think I'm done on the side. Perhaps you should turn me over.
Brian - New: A tasty way to roast fish, not intended for human use
Charlie- New: The reason St Lawrence and the holy grail are connected is that. If you want to see the actual holy grail, the thing that has the greatest claim to being the actual holy grail, you need to go to Spain.
You need to go to Madrid. And they're on display in a beautiful reliquary case. We will see the cup that Saint Lawrence brought there. Now this cup is claimed to be the cup that was used by Christ at the last supper. And why does it have the greatest claim to this? Because when they started testing it and looking [00:02:00] at it, it is a first century. Jewish. Kiddish cup. From. Israel. It is made from Israeli stone. It is made in the style of first century cups that would be used at a Passover. Dinner. And just the odds of a cup from the first century, Palestine. Making it all the way to Spain. As the cup that was used at the last supper, especially remembering that St. Lawrence is in the tradition of Saint Peter. He was in the line of St. Peter, like actually in the line of St. Peter. The idea that it could have been passed down from Peter. To him makes sense.
It has the best argument, whether it is or not, we will never know. Unless we get some ability to do time travel or to be able to put up a time window or something to look back into, but we will never know.
I will say for anybody who wants to talk about [00:03:00] historical grails, The historical grill would have been made out of stone or glass. It had to be made out of something. Impermeable. Because it was used at a Passover day. Meal. And you could not have anything that had the risk. Of yeast being in it. It had to be considered ritualistically clean. Would was not ritualistically clean. Metals, we're not considered, ritualistically clean for these kinds of purposes in the first century. It was. Virtually impossible to find a metal cup in this time, period.
It also would not have been clay. More than likely it would have been stone.
Carnelian stones were used a lot for these cups in the first century. And that's in fact what we see in the cup. That is preserved in the cathedral there. In fact, when we were sending up our altar, we got a carnelian cup. To use as our grail. That is what we use in ritual. Does does any of this matter?
No. [00:04:00] It's an interesting historical thing, because there's a lot of question about this. If there is a historical grail, If somehow the cup used at the last supper did survive. More than likely it's in Spain.
The grail, as we think about it is the cauldron of the Dagda. that is where the idea comes from the horn of plenty. But because the Celtic regions gave us the stories of the grail. it is. The cauldron of the Dogda.
It's the ever flowing cauldron that has all of the blessings in it. That no one leaves unsatisfied. That is what the grail is. So if you just want to think of it as the cauldron of the Dagda. Or the cup of Christ or, or, or, or. Any of that works. The grail is a legend. I feel like it's very important. For us to realize when we were talking about pure legend and pure mythology. Was a cup used at the last supper. Jesus was a Jew. Of course they had a cup. That is part of the Passover ritual. Does it [00:05:00] matter if we have the actual cup? No.
What is the symbol of the cup? What does the cup mean? In druidry, especially.
The cup, the chalice, the holy grail has a very particular meaning. In fact, Dion fortune says when we are calling for blessings, we should take the chalice pose. We should stand. In the form of the grail. In other words, you stand like you're doing the Y in YMCA stand with your back straight. And you've put your arms out in front of you to welcome it all in that you stand in chalice pose. To bring it in as a sign to the universe. I'm ready. Give it to me. That's what we're talking about here. Is this cup of blessing. This chalice of miracles, this chalice of magic, this jealous of life. That brings all good things into us.
In the tradition of the AODA, the. Ancient order of Druids in America.
They have a very. Wonderful way. Of understanding the grail. This [00:06:00] is not unique to them, but I'm not going to go into all of the symbology for why it is this way. But if you are interested in that, John Michael Greer has written a lot of books on druidry that you can find. These ideas in there. But the idea is that the grail. Is where the lyric energies, the energies of the earth. Rise up and meet and balance with the cosmic solar energies. That are coming in from the cosmos. And they mix and they meet and they are joined in.
Perfect. blessed unity and harmony. That this is the grail. That this is enlightenment, that this is wisdom. Phillip Carr-Gomm, when he talks about the grail, talks about it as a symbol of enlightenment. That it is. this. State, almost that you can attain. Where you have achieved the grail. You've had the beatific vision.
You have had that moment of enlightenment. I would agree with that. It is a powerful [00:07:00] image. It is one that we can meditate on that we can sit in. Allow through visualization. To bless us and bring us joy. This AODA idea. Of it being where we find this great balance between the powers of earth. And the powers of the cosmos, the great to lyric current rising up from beneath us and the great solar current coming down that meet. In the great lunar current, which is the merger, the joining of the two.
Is a powerful image, because again, you have think of the shape of a chalice, right? You have the welling of up, you have the collecting down and very often in grail imagery, there's a ball in the middle. That joint in the middle where they meet. And that's where the lunar energy comes in. And that's where the symbol of the grill is for them is when you mix these symbols.
Brian - New: The point in that cup where you behold, where you take hold of the cup. It is the point that you partake from. So it also has that added [00:08:00] imagery of these things pulled together in union where you can hold onto it and partake of it. To imbue into yourself.
Charlie- New: It is a meditation. That I recommend that you do. We're soon going to be starting a meditation podcast that is going to be separate from this one.
I'm not going to say the name yet because I know my luck. If I say the name of somebody else full. Quickly swoop in and. Do it, but hint, we already bought the domain name for it. So
we at least have that code for us. But we are going to be doing actual meditation podcast. And. We've talked about a lot of little practices in here.
That's going to be like, Let's sit into a meditation. Full-on guided meditations. So I'm not going to do a full on guided meditation for you right now, but those will be coming in the future. And we'll let you know when we start that podcast.
But the basic. Most profound meditation that you can do. On the grail. Is to sit. Back balanced, however, you're most comfortable. And if your back hurts, [00:09:00] if you have other issues laid out, If you're somebody who has a hard time sitting stamped. Don't walk. I don't think this meditation works well as a walking meditation. Yeah, I think you need to be rooted in some way, whether that's sitting, standing or lying down, you need to be firmly on something. A cup of wobbling.
It's not a good image. Yeah, and I feel like walking, it would be hard cause you're going to visualize your body as the grail for this. So walking to me as a very. Wobbly. I picture like from, Beauty and the beast, all the cups and stuff . Tottering down the table.
Find, find a way that's comfortable for you.
Sit, stand, or lie down. And imagine the energies of the earth coming up through your feet. And. When I say, imagine. Feel it. Those energies are there. They are rising up, but again, as rabbi Cooper, Often. Tell tells us. Don't worry if you can't feel it, imagine that you [00:10:00] can't. Because the imagination is our interface. With the divine. It's where we communicate with the divine. So. Fake it till you make it pretend that you can feel it.
Cause sometimes you have to break down your own awareness. And by. Imagining that you're feeling this energy flowing into you. What I would say you're really doing is breaking down those barriers that keep you from feeling it.
Feel that energy. Rising up. You can be a slow or as fast as you feel comfortable being. If you want to luxuriate in this. Each toe, start on your little pinky toes. And feel it as it fills up each toe, moving into your feet. All the way up your legs. Through your waist.
If you're somebody who likes chakras. Not everybody's into chakras, but if you're into chakras, You're going to pull this all the way up to just below your heart chakra. So the bottom three chakras. Starting in Muladhara and moving up, you're going to feel that energy coming up. Up your [00:11:00] legs. That's across your waist. Recessing into the place where you sit. And then moving up. Into your stomach and filling all the way up to your lungs. Stopping when it gets to your heart.
And then. You start feeling the solar energy, that power coming down from the cosmos. It's not just the power of the sun. It's all the sons, all of the stars, all of the fast energies of the cosmos.
Brian - New: It's all that wind energy in the atmosphere above you. Because there's tons of it up there. That's what moves the clouds around. It makes the breeze, whether there's a breeze or not, there's still wind up there.
Charlie- New: And if you're somebody who's into sh chakras, this is going to come into the seventh chakra on the top of your head.
If you're not into chakra, as it comes in right on the top of your head, you can feel it as a gentle rain. Touching your head and raining. And filling you up. Like a cup. You can feel it as light shining in, but it comes in through the top of your head. And slowly fills [00:12:00] your head. Your eyes, your nose, your mouth, your ears down. Your throat to your neck. Into your shoulders down your arms, into your fingers and down into your chest. Filling all the way up. Just about your heart. And feel just luxuriate in this for a little bit, that earth energy, that lyric energy coming up. And that solar energy coming down. Then right there in your chest.
However you want to imagine this. A couple of fish swimming around each other. swirling Whirlpool, a yin yan symbol, whatever. However, it works best for you. Mixing and merging and swirling together. And this bright silver light. Of that lunar energy. Coming out from your chest. As the tour merging and then feel that silver light. Fill your entire body and radiate out from there. [00:13:00] This is the grail. This is the unity of opposites. This is the place where the great powers of the earth. And the power is the cosmos come together in perfect balance.
And this is what we're looking for in the grail. And this is why the grail. It's hard to find. And impossible to keep.
Impossible to keep. When you read the earth theory entails. The grail has always carried. Sometimes by angels sometimes by nuns sometimes by months, sometimes by priests sometimes by nights, depending on the story that you're reading, but it's always being carried. It's seen in procession. This is important. I think a lot of people miss this. The grail is always seen in procession. It isn't moving. It is alive. It is energetic. It is in motion.
Brian - New: This is also why the object is a cup. Because a cup fills and it empties. Fills and it empties. fills and it empties. It is never left, full or left empty.
Otherwise. It's not a cup. Even if you let a cup set for years and years [00:14:00] unused. It's still filling with dust.
Charlie- New: A couple of cup.
Brian - New: A Cup will cup until there's no longer a cup. And that is gone. Because it's still emotion. It ends up not in your house anymore. Right now in your life. Moving on.
Charlie- New: But that blessing of unity is what we're seeking. Well from in parts of all, has I think the most interesting story about the grail. It's one that he had to recant.
If you ever read parts of all. I, it's one of my favorite retellings of the grail story. Might be able to find versions of it online. It's been, it was written in the 15 hundreds serving a lot of translations of it over the years. So there should be versions of it online.
But he told a version of the story that upset the people in the court so much, he recants it later in the story.
But in his first retelling. Of the grail. The grail is a stone.
That was originally held in heaven. And when the war breaks out in heaven. Between God and the devil. The neutral angels, which in this initial telling of the [00:15:00] story are the good guys.
Snatch it and hide it. Because the power. Contained within it. Is so great. That if either side were to have absolute control over it. It would Rob the freewill. Of everyone. And that site, we're just when.
They grabbed it and they hit it on earth. And of course later in the story. He walks this back.
Because of course the priests jumped in and were like, no,
And his Royal patron was like, well, the priest say no, so it's a no.
But I like this version of the story because the grill is powerful. It is mighty when you're living in this balance. And when I say living in this is. , goal. This is like trying to achieve Nirvana. This is trying to achieve enlightenment. It is something that we will have fleeting experiences off. If we are blessed. And our practices good and strong. We will have more and more [00:16:00] time in that state. And in that place. It is a goal that we strive for.
But when you live in that energy, in that blessing union, Between the great cosmic powers and the great earthly powers. That's where all real. Magic. And life exist. Because. I think we. Misunderstand spiritual things.
We're either. So high minded. There were always talking about. Called and the angels and the gods and the spirits and the guides. And. The energies
Brian - New: we try to be the liquid in the cup.
Charlie- New: Or we become so earthy. There were only thinking about practical matters. Feeding. People taking care of people, the war, the environmental concerns. All of those things.
Brian - New: were we all base we can't hold anything. I should correct myself. Before, we're not the liquid or, the top of the cup . we would just spill over. If you're just the top. Without a base you'll just spill over all the time. And if you just the base, you [00:17:00] can't hold anything.
Charlie- New: And the real challenge of our spiritual life is to find this balance between those earthly energies, those earthly concerns. Which are very much of the earth.
They're making sure everyone is fed that everyone is healthy, that there is peace and prosperity in the land. All of the things that we see, the Fisher king losing. When he is wounded. When the great grievous wound comes upon him. And the land no longer produces food and the water. Has gone bitter and poisonous. And everything is dying. We need to take care of those. Earthly concerns. We also need to be feeding our spirits.
We need to be exposing ourselves to all and beauty. And learning to open ourselves and like go and engage in our creativity. However, we are most creative through singing, through cooking, through knitting, through crochet, through writing, telling stories. What. Playing with clay painting. Writing [00:18:00] poetry, whatever.
However, we are creative. And through the fourth path. Which I think is the one that everyone wants to misunderstand. This is the brilliance that Matthew Fox had when he was made together. The four paths of creation spirituality. The fourth path is justice making. And celebration.
Because. Injustice. There is always celebration. Anytime we are. Find justice you celebrate you can't help it. Justice has prevailed. But in celebration. There has to be that tone of justice as well. You don't celebrate when everything is bad, right. Oh, bad news has come my way. not how that works.
You say a blessing? I really am. We will talk about. Blessings and things. I love the idea of when bad news comes your way to just say blessed. Are you? Oh Lord, who gives me the gift of hearing? Finding that one little bit of light and inside the darkness, because I think we always need to be looking for that. [00:19:00] But that celebration is there. We have to find those moments to celebrate.
As we've talked about in a previous episode. We have to live in that balance. Bringing up those good things from the earth. And bringing down those great things from beyond.
Whether that for you. Is. Truly in that energetic realm. Where we're talking about those subtle energies or if it's.
That's a place where you cannot go for whatever reason. You're still going there. If you look at a piece of art and you find beauty in it, If you look at nature and you experience all, it's the same thing.
Those are those subtle energies acting in you, whether. You admit it or not?
And so finding that balance. Because we can't just always be in nature. Remember thorough wide. I can't say this enough. I know we in America like to look at. Walden and be like, I want to be like throw and it took an army of women to keep [00:20:00] thorough alive. He was on Walden pond. He had cooks and cleaners and people take care of. He had an army of women keeping him alive on Walden pond.
It wasn't just him. He just didn't talk about them because he was not one that was strong. With ego death. He was very strong with the ego.
The greatest critique of that book was Emerson's. When asked what he thought about on, on Walden pond, he said, He quoted the book, simplicity, simplicity, simplicity. And then said, I think only one simplicity would have done. Would have sufficed.
Yeah. Throw talked a lot. And I'm not saying to just throw him out completely. He there's some fun ideas in there, but. This image of it happened alone now. Yes, go out to nature. Reconnect with nature. All of that is great. It's wonderful.
But we also have to participate in the real world. With other people. We can't separate ourselves from the [00:21:00] world.
As much as we want to.
The world will intervene. If there is a pandemic, it will find its way to your community. You can't ball yourself off. And keep yourself safe. If there is war. In your country, it will find its way to your doorstep. If there is strife, it will find its way to your doorstep. No matter how far removed you think you are. From all of that, you can't escape. So you have to find that balance. And that's what the grail is. The grail is that great image?
Of balance. Of hope.
And once you find that balance to be able to drink it in. To fill it, come into your life and to bring with it. Its blessings. It's changed. Bring with it. The glory that it can bring into your life. And that is. I think for me, at least one of the greatest symbols. Of the spiritual path. As somebody who spent a lot of years in [00:22:00] Catholicism, this is what the Eucharist is for me. It is the embodiment of this action. Where we have quite literally the heavenly body of Christ. Being brought into the fruit of the vine, the wine. Cause then Catholicism, unlike in a lot of traditions, you actually break the bread and put a piece of it into the wine. They actually meet in the chalice. A lot of other, I know I grew up Baptist and we just had a thing of grape juice and we had a thing of crackers. But in Catholicism, you actually break the bread and a piece of it goes into the challenge. That divine, heavenly body. It's mixed with that fruit of the vine. Having an earth meet in the childless.
That is such a beautiful image. In Wicca. They often perform a ritual where they have the chalice of the goddess and the blade of the God. And they bring them together in the ritual. Same image that is the grail. The power of the masculine and feminine meeting and finding [00:23:00] balance and harmony union. Whatever imagery connects with you as a non-binary person.
I don't relate as well with the gender images, but it's just me.
Whatever image works for you. Whatever symbols work for you. The grail might seem too fantasy literature for you. And that's fine. You don't have to accept this image and all, I guess I have to work with the grail now. But if you've never tried. Especially the meditation I talked about earlier. You should try it. As the Psalmist tells us we should taste and see that the Lord is good. And as Paul says, we should test all things and hold to that, which is true.
This is a meditation that I do often. It's one I often do when I'm having trouble sleeping.
Because finding that place of rest of peace of harmony within myself. Helps me to relax. Unlike a lot of meditations where you should come out of them before you fall asleep. This is a great one to fall asleep in the middle of. Find that [00:24:00] balance. Find that peace rest in it and just melt away into sleep.
It's a great way to end your day. It's a great way to start your day to find that balance and really come at your day from that initial starting point of balance. But it's also a wonderful way to end your day.
Cannot recommend it enough.
Brian - New: Another powerful image that I really enjoy, for the Buddhists out there. It is.
At the challenges for the Buddha when he was sitting beneath the Bodhi tree. The gods are around . And the accuser is questioning: who are you? He reaches into the energies of the earth.
Charlie- New: what, it gives you the right to defy your Dharma. You. We're a king.
Brian - New: The energies of the earth. He has near testify for him.
The energies of the divine were already. They're filling in that moment was filling in the way in that challenge. Where he is at centerpiece of the chalice. And it's really very powerful because that is. Us that is every individual. And in the very essence, we are both the meat. The earth. [00:25:00] That we were made of and spirit. In union. And. Our ultimate self.
In that balance and then recognizing that. Constantly. Daily. Remembering. It is the answer to who are you? Well, I am that balance between the two.
Charlie- New: Let the earth testify.
As Brian saying this, I can't help, but look over at the earth, touching Buddha.
I hope that this has meant something for you. I hope that you've gotten something out of this. The grail is a powerful image and we can go into this in a lot more depth if you want us to. We are, we have a lot that we want to talk about and we have. Scheduled out a whole bunch of things that we want to talk about, but we also want to dig in deeper where you all want us to.
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And if there are any ways that we can make this more of a blessing. Do let us know. And until next time. I made the piece of the light ever be with you. Amen.
Brian - New: Amen .
The Quest for the Grail